[OJ'S BroncoM]

With the spring brackets posted you may be surprised that the bracket and seeding is pretty much meaningless. What it does is assign locations so teams can show up. The seeding is rather moot.

Take the 2010 winter playoffs for example. The lower seed won five of the eight first round matches. In the second round no advantage to the higher seed as it was even 2-2. In the finals the higher seed lost (by one point) to the 13th seed.

In the Fall 2009 playoffs you’ll see that the finals pitted an 8th and 12th seed against each other with the 12th seed winning the Cup.

Hypothesis: The depth of the teams from top to bottom (seeds)seems to be improving which negates any perception that the higher seeds are “better”. They simply play more.

Ild like to know if Quizzo has a mathematical wizard in the league (not I) who could put together an ESPN/Stats Inc/Vegas style of handicapping these playoffs. I like to use the scoring average but even that fails to take into account multiple inputs.

Also consider that if just the top ten scores (no bonus point adjustment) for each team was used, we would get a very different bracket as well.

A thought for the future, make bonus points a completely different prize that does not reflect in the standings, except for maybe a tie breaker. But make it worth while, something of similar value. Reward the teams that play a lot but don’t make it part of the final standings as bonus points skew team “strength”. Make the bonus points a fun side game. Maybe a limo ride for the team to a dinner or club, multiple Tigers tickets, etc. Something classy and fun for three months worth of weekday nights playing Quizzo.

Bonus points don’t count towards final standings, just the top ten scores. So if a team plays 30 times and scores 10 points, 10 times, they score 100. That’s never been done. The more times you play the better the chance you have to score well. I get that. And good for anyone who can play that many times. High score this season was 97 which is very impressive.

The regular season just gets you a golden ticket to the playoffs, winning the Cup is the actual goal.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

What would it look like if; In order to qualify for the playoffs, teams would have to have at least 10 matches played?

Raw points, no bonus, was the score that would qualify a team.

[Womack]

Well, the rules state that you have to post at least nine scores to be eligible for the playoffs. The bonus points are an important part of this business, along with the normal points of course. If a team is getting 8's, 9's or 10's throughout the season while only mustering up 20 bonus points, they are STILL going to make the playoffs, but at a lower seed. I understand your point that the seeding is rather moot, but it wouldn't make any sense to just have it be random. I mean, does the fact that OJ's Bronco's are getting the ten seed make it sound that the former champs are falling from glory? ha ha ha!!

[OJ'S BroncoM]

Hardly falling from glory. Check the stats.

Anyway, ok, let's say we keep it at 9 matches. That's fine. But don't count the bonus points in the total score. Make that a seperate achievement as bonus points don't have anything to do with the score but rather, dedication, for lack of a better term. And I think dedication should be rewarded.

Keep bonus points, just make a different incentive to score them. Big prize at the end for the teams that play the most.

Those teams that score a bunch of bonus points will STILL make the playoffs of for the simple fact that they will have more opportunities to rack up 8, 9 and 10 point nights. But they won't be seeded as high.

It keeps really "strong teams" from meeting in the first round like MLRO and Those Otters this season and The Lone Rangers and Bob's Chicken Shack.

The REAL regualr season champ is the team who can score the most raw points based off of questions answered. Bonus points don't help you in the playoffs. Just ask the top five teams of the last two playoff brackets.

If you re-seed based off of raw scores you'll see a massive change in the bracket that will closely resemble the actual "stronger" teams on down.

In it's current form, "top" seeds are at a HUGE disadvantage as they have to play much stronger "lower" seeds. Pretty much flip flop the bracket... for the most part. MDatCW would still be #1 but everyone else radically moves. 97 points by MDatCW is a really great score.

[Mantan]

The system works well. If you remove the bonus points from the scoring setting that would hurt the quizzo biz model. Having a bonus night is a good way for the Quizzo team to fill new bars and get teams to show up that otherwise wouldn't show up to that bar. More teams at bars makes the bar happy $$$. Team quizzo keeping the bar happy means they keep working there and can get more bars to sign up. It also keeps more teams playing over the whole season as a opposed to just filling the matrix and being done.

Doing away with bonus points would only help teams that only play once a week and teams that play at bars where there is very weak competition at. It would hurt good teams that play at bars where a lot of top teams play at. Let say a good team finished in like 5 or 6 place that night they get nothing. Where as with bonus points they still could walk away with a few points (bonus wise) for there effort and keep them playing.

Bonus should be figured into the overall score. They show the difference between a team that wants a top spots ( finishing in the top 5 and getting regular season money) more then the next team who only plays once a week and doesn't care about the regular season and standings. Just caring about getting into the playoffs. Bonus nights bring out the competition on a week to week bases, some teams don't go to the bonus all the time but a lot do. Bonus points have been playing a bigger roll the last few season in determining who is the number 1 team (not so much this season MDatCW ran away with it the whole season) but last winter came down to one point for first place. The teams that only play once a week it sounds have the biggest problem with bonus points b/c they are getting knocked back in the standing vs. teams going after the bonus points and the higher rankings.

The money pot size would shrink as well. No point in playing late in the season once the matrix is filled, which a good team can fill in 6 weeks or less with 9 and 10s. Less money in the pot could also turn off new teams from joining the league. Why join the league if the pot size is small or lower compared to last couple seasons. bigger pots draw more teams to the league instead of just playing for the gift cards. Bigger pots are the only way to grow this thing.

The playoffs are crap shoot anyone can win on any given night regardless of position. Just like in the sports world. With the new play in option has changed the playoff system in a good way more chances for teams that don't play all the time can get in.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

Thanks for the detailed response!

Let me re-state and state this again, I do not want to get rid of bonus points. Not in favor of it at all. I like them. But could they be used more effectively?

Bonus points could be a separate prize... a BIG significant prize. Teams that play every night should be rewarded for their dedication. As of right now, they are not.

Follow me through the math... Take 2010 Winter season. MDatCW won $190 for first place. I do not have the stats but let's say they played 25 times, thus paying $50 for the chance to win $190. $190-$50= $140 net. You figure a playoff team can have 8 people so that adds up to a whopping $17.50 windfall for three months of hard work per team player. So each member won about $0.70 for their hard work and dedication for each of the 25 times they played. (it's even less for the teams who don't finish first)

That being said, the regular season “title” is a pretty small victory. But we don't do this for the money we do it for the fame... and fun.

The teams that play the most would STILL have the advantage to win the overall season. MDatCW would STILL be the team with the most points this season BUT the rest of the bracket would adjust quite a bit. If you play 30 times you can still score in the 80's without a problem and will make the playoffs. You'll still have 30 times to score 8, 9 and 10s.

And for the teams that ONLY play once a week, that's their problem. My team plays once a week and scored the highest average out of teams that only played 10 times (and the highest league average) We have a raw score of 87 points. We're fine with that because that's all we can get together and play. But we're better than the 10th seed. And so is the current 6th, 11th and 12th seed. It makes for an imbalanced bracket in its present form.

Winning Quizzo comes down to one thing and one thing only, having more points at the end of the night than your opponent. Bonus points aren't going to help anyone in the playoffs.

I also disagree that any team can beat any other team on any given night. Let’s pick the first round and see who’s “system” is more reliable, seeding or strength of past performance.

I propose;
1. A separate award or recognition for the team with the MOST bonus points each season
2. A regular season champion based off of raw score only, with limitless opportunities to improve a team's score (maybe bonus points could be the tie breaker)
3. Playoff seeding based off of the raw score, non adjusted for bonus points to get a true high vs low seed pairing in the playoffs.


I'm ready for the playoffs to start.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

Mantan, on 14 June 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

The system works well. If you remove the bonus points from the scoring setting that would hurt the quizzo biz model. Having a bonus night is a good way for the Quizzo team to fill new bars and get teams to show up that otherwise wouldn't show up to that bar. More teams at bars makes the bar happy $$$. Team quizzo keeping the bar happy means they keep working there and can get more bars to sign up. It also keeps more teams playing over the whole season as a opposed to just filling the matrix and being done.

~Quizzo STILL needs to fill the bars! I want a bigger league too. In my option MDatCW would have won top team AND an additional bonus award this season. The matrix is pretty much locked up in week 8 anyway. A few teams just move around within it

Doing away with bonus points would only help teams that only play once a week and teams that play at bars where there is very weak competition at. It would hurt good teams that play at bars where a lot of top teams play at. Let say a good team finished in like 5 or 6 place that night they get nothing. Where as with bonus points they still could walk away with a few points (bonus wise) for there effort and keep them playing.

~Most once a week teams ONLY play at one bar. ~ Our opinions of a "good team" is different. 5th or 6th place isn't good. I didn't even know you could get points for 5th or 6th place. lol Some teams go to "weak bars". Sherwoods was a "weak quizzo bar". Things change. ~teams would always walk away with points on a bonus night the same as they do now. I don't get your point.

Bonus should be figured into the overall score. They show the difference between a team that wants a top spots ( finishing in the top 5 and getting regular season money) more then the next team who only plays once a week and doesn't care about the regular season and standings. Just caring about getting into the playoffs. Bonus nights bring out the competition on a week to week bases, some teams don't go to the bonus all the time but a lot do. Bonus points have been playing a bigger roll the last few season in determining who is the number 1 team (not so much this season MDatCW ran away with it the whole season) but last winter came down to one point for first place. The teams that only play once a week it sounds have the biggest problem with bonus points b/c they are getting knocked back in the standing vs. teams going after the bonus points and the higher rankings.

~see my post about "regular season money". ~isn't everyone trying to make the playoffs? Esp the teams who play ten times a season, right? Being knocked back in the standings is a moot point as well. 24 teams make the playoffs now. Just about all the teams who play once a week will make it, that's not an issue at all. It's about seeding teams properly. Like in the NCAA tourney, if Oakland was seeded a 2 and Xavier a 14, that wouldn't make much sense. But that's what we do with bonus points. Bonus points is a different part of the game.
The money pot size would shrink as well. No point in playing late in the season once the matrix is filled, which a good team can fill in 6 weeks or less with 9 and 10s. Less money in the pot could also turn off new teams from joining the league. Why join the league if the pot size is small or lower compared to last couple seasons. bigger pots draw more teams to the league instead of just playing for the gift cards. Bigger pots are the only way to grow this thing.

~ Why do you think the money pot would shrink? I think it will GROW. EVERY team could have a shot to be #1. All they have to do is get to 100 raw points. It levels the playing field. The teams that play 30 times will still have the advantage! But everyone has a chance. (Just like in Hoosiers) The prize pool grew by 11% from Winter to Spring season and that was even with hockey playoffs getting in the way. Why shouldn't Quizzo get a 50% boost in prize money? Their is another league out there who has 45 teams just in the playoffs... Quizzo needs to get some of that market share. LOTS of people like to play pub trivia, we need to entice them to come over to our league.

The playoffs are crap shoot anyone can win on any given night regardless of position. Just like in the sports world. With the new play in option has changed the playoff system in a good way more chances for teams that don't play all the time can get in.

~No way dude, the strong will win and crush. All shall bow before the power of Zod. PS I LOVE the new play in system.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

What do MDatCW think?

[MDatCW]

"The REAL regualr season champ is the team who can score the most raw points based off of questions answered."

OJ, I don't know if you were trying to diss us or any of the other teams that like to play at different venues against different teams, but the REAL REGULAR SEASON CHAMPS are the one's that can show that they can win at multiple different venues against multiple different teams. Not the teams that can only play and win at the same bar against the same teams every week. Yes, you have the best average score, but seriously you only have 10 scores to compute that average off of. I do apologize and take back what I just said if I took your statement the wrong way.

As it is now, the regular season and playoffs are two completely separate games. And for both, ANY team (excluding time and money factors) has a chance to win.

If you really believe that NOT anyone can win in the playoffs, why are you making a fuss. You should be just fine. The system worked out pretty well for you last season. Anyways, I like to collect bar gift certificates they help feed me.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

MDatCW, on 14 June 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

"The REAL regualr season champ is the team who can score the most raw points based off of questions answered."

OJ, I don't know if you were trying to diss us or any of the other teams that like to play at different venues against different teams, but the REAL REGULAR SEASON CHAMPS

You ARE the regular season champs. I think I state that scoring a raw 97 IS pretty awesome several times.

You took that out of context... IN context I was stating that the bracket is out of balance because bonus points skew the standings. With the current rules and what I propose MDatCW would still be first based off of RAW scores. Everyone else would adjust based off of RAW score for playoff seeding.

And in the future it should always be that the team with the highest RAW score is the regular season champ. Someone could score 80 raw points and 170 bonus points and be number one. It could happen.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

MDatCW,

Yeah you're right. It worked out pretty good for us.

I wrote a lot so you probably missed where I think you guys should be rewarded for playing and winning all over the place. I wish more teams played as much as you and each of those teams brought more people, who formed more teams to play.

Bigger Quizzo = bigger prizes and more fun. Thanks for spreading the word as we're all in the same Quizzo league.

It wouldn't be the same without you.

Love,
OJ

[MDatCW]

OJ said:

You ARE the regular season champs. I think I state that scoring a raw 97 IS pretty awesome several times.

You took that out of context... IN context I was stating that the bracket is out of balance because bonus points skew the standings. With the current rules and what I propose MDatCW would still be first based off of RAW scores. Everyone else would adjust based off of RAW score for playoff seeding.

And in the future it should always be that the team with the highest RAW score is the regular season champ. Someone could score 80 raw points and 170 bonus points and be number one. It could happen.

Yes, the bonus points do skew the regular season bracket as they should, to provide an incentive to play more quizzo. But when the playoffs start, those bonus points mean nothing anymore, just as it means nothing whether you play 30 times or only 8 times in a season. Just as it means nothing as to whether you are a number 1 seed or a number 13 seed in the bracket. Anyone can win in the playoffs. I am sorry but I am not seeing the problem you are creating.

[Mantan]

seeding dont matter in the playoffs is true. On any given night any team can win regardless of how they fared in the regular season.

Quit trying to shove an elephant into an empty room.


Btw I play for MDatCW

[Mikey]

Enter Lord Mikey, The high priest of the Quizzo Religion.

Dudes,

I love you for having this conversation. Your feedback is awesome and very well thought out. From a business perspective, I can't imagine a hotel or restaurant gets feedback this valuable from their surveys or comment cards EVER. So for that, I thank you.

On the topic. I had lunch with our director, Becky, this week and we discussed this very issue. We determined that it was a good idea to cap bonus points at 50 to give other teams a chance to make a run at the top 5 regular season prizes. After letting some food digest I sent out text messages to all of the hosts and some people that are close to the business whom I trust and value their opinions. Incredibly enough, the text votes that I got back were 7-3 in favor of NOT capping bonus pts. Why? because even with a cap of 50, it doesnt change this seasons standings. It only punches those people in the face and makes them play less (thank you all for playing, new stuff coming next season that you are really gonna enjoy).

To OJs point - Leave bonus pts the way they are, seed regular season teams based on their their top 10 scores and give out a prize for most bonus pts. A SIDE POT if you will for the people who play the most and succeed. I like the idea. The reason this presents a problem for the business is because the leagues are self funded. You pay money, that money goes back to you. Granted we have to spend money here and there but, for the most part, it is a self sustaining side business. Also, I wouldn't down play the achievement of regular season champs. I think it was made very clear that MDatCW were shooting for the 200pt mark because they wanted bragging rights. We have discovered that Quizzo isn't about the money you win really. 90% of the league teams play for bragging rights. They see a large list of really talented teams and they wanna knock them off and put their name on the cup. Mantan makes a great point. They can walk into a lot of bars and nail down a gift certificate thus winning free drinks and food. Fun, Bragging Rights, Free Food and Beer, a chance to win the Quizzo Cup and $200+ cash just for the hell of it.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

All Hail, the Lord has spoken.

[Mikey]

yeah, i don't even type that at the top, it just automatically appears sometimes.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

So far 2010 Spring playoffs

Higher seed 4 wins
Lower seed 4 wins.

Seeding = crap shoot.

[Mikey]

thats why the top 5 get cash. otherwise its all about just making the top 24.

Also, since quizzo is not like other sports with rosters and what not, we are not able to take into account the teams that add or upgrade players for playoff time.

[OJ'S BroncoM]

I'm just glad Quizzo counts as a sport.

[Mikey]

Name the Movie:

JOSH
I'm not very good at sports, but I'll give it a try. My best sport is
video hockey.

PAUL
That isn't a sport.

JOSH
Well, it takes eye to hand coordination.

PAUL
It's not a sport if you don't sweat!

JOSH
What about golf? You don't sweat and that's a sport.

PAUL
Yeah, and you're not sittin' there letting some machine do all the
work!

JOSH
What about car racing?